OTC=/= sex

How about E = mc2, 😁😁

===> "There is a fuckton of paid OTC going on that isn't fucking/sucking etc." Sure there is blah. Just like there really is a pot of gold at the end of that rainbow. And of course Santa and the Easter Bunny are real. And I don't know about anybody else, but I think that there's a hidden valley somewhere in this world with beautiful unicorns roaming breezy open fields. And... 😉

I"m sure there is a certain amount of it. Just like there are some platonic arrangements in sugaring. There are guys out there that just want some company and are willing to pay for that company. I think it's a small percentage, but it I'm sure it does happen. I'm not paying just for someone's company, but I think there are people out there that are.

I think that’s true blah but I just think the burden of proof per say should fall on the PL that was actually lol level pathetic enough to partake or the stripper that made out with such a sweet deal, it would fall on them to make that distinction. Not the rest of us who would have to bend over backwards and add an extra letter every time IMO.

If course there are, these are how all of 2Icee’s arrangements work.

Sure, I believe it. Just like there are girls doing VIPs ITC without anything sexual even in well known extras clubs because there are guys that don’t clarify up front what they are expecting. So if the guy is vague about expectations for a paid date, he shouldn’t be surprised if he goes home with blue balls.

I suppose that there has to be a percentage of "specialists" (to borrow the term from Deadwood...) who want to pay for a sex worker's time outside of a club and not have sex, but I struggle to believe that this percentage could rise to the level of a "fuckton". Perhaps there's a fair number of dancers saying that they have OTC regulars who pay them solely for their company or some other non-sexual activity, but I suspect that the reality is that many of them are actually fucking and sucking and then engaging in some public-facing fantasy.

Blah is correct, when her target market is desperate lonely guys who can’t get with women other than paying them to meet up OTC. Simps will gladly hand over $$ and ask for nothing in return, but when you’re a guy who is busy dealing with work and family that guy is only going to pay for time off services rendered involve sex, otherwise what’s in it for that guy, stimulating conversation? I think not, but glad you’ve found a niche market where a fuckton of simps will pay you for being a friend. I don’t need any more friends, and if I do I would get another dog.

Idk…I remember being in Miami once in a crappy club (least favorite club of anywhere I’ve been ever) not making much of anything and chatting with a customer at his table and he was tipping me small amounts to stay at his table. He wanted me to meet him after my shift for a few hundred and I wasn’t going for it, then he outright promised without me saying anything that I don’t have to do anything sexual if I don’t want to, just hang out at the beach house. I didn’t go for it anyways. But hey even in extras central south Florida I’m pretty sure he was being honest so idk why the backlash on blah’s post. 🤷🏻‍♀️

It’s not backlash, it’s input from guys who know what they’re doing. As others have stated, nobody really doubts what she has stated it’s just that if you’re not lonely or desperate you’re unlikely to pay for otc without getting h sex in return.

I have been with pretty girls who had some pretty awesome OTC stories about getting paid for non-sexual activities. These are credible girls I had long term relationships with and had credibility. Its very real but I suspect not very common.

I actually think non-sex OTC is more common that we'd think. The reason none of us here believe it's true is because none of us would remotely even consider it. But we're a forum of hardcore PLs who have enough experience to understand our basic needs and not settle. Is it possible that there are lots of lots of RILs taking their ATFs to dinner for $200 out there? That counts as meeting outside the club. It's not a stretch for me to believe it happens, although it's hard to imagine it happens often. That said, on PL forums, the specific acronym OTC always implies sex -- or at least, the PL intends to have sex, but there's a chance he'll get scammed. None of us use the term OTC to mean "I took my ATF to lunch". Similarly, on tuscl "extras" means some direct stimulation of our genitals by her hand, mouth, pussy, or butthole, whereas on SW I've seen them insist that anything you do in the dance that's extra (e.g., let him suck on a nipple) counts as "extras" In any case, if non-sex OTC happens somewhere, it doesn't really impact us, it's like some parallel universe we'll never enter. PLs are only looking for sexual OTCs, and it's easy to find, so that's basically our whole world. Who cares what some RILs somewhere are doing? Doesn't really have anything to do with me

Blah, all my earlier joking aside, I know that it happens now and then. IME it's usually a dumb shit who convinces himself, despite everything a girl is telling him will NOT happen, that she may change her mind if he can just get hour outside somewhere. I've also heard stories about the guys that take their CFs out to dinner on the way to the club. But if it were more common, more girls would be confused about my expectations when I ask them OTC, but they aren't and never have been the past several years. So with all that said I suspect that "fuckton" is probably not an accurate representation, at least as a % of the whole, lol.

This is a pretty granular debate about terminology. For the vast majority of guys who interact and post reviews on here, the ratio for seeing "OTCS" used versus "OTC" would be about 100 to 1. Also, if that's how a guy wants to spend his money and that's fun for him, then that's fine. Generally speaking, it's not my place to tell someone that they're having fun wrong.

The percentage of men that pay a stripper for non-sexual OTC companionship is probably about the same percentage of men that hire an escort for non-sexual companionship. There are some situations that I can see it happening like a bachelor party where they want a fun night in private without going to a club. Or like what was mentioned above where there are no full nude clubs but they want to get full nude dances but don't want anything more for "moral reaso

Or like what was mentioned above where there are no full nude clubs but they want to get full nude dances but don't want anything more for "moral reasons" like not wanting to go far enough to cheat on their spouse.

If people are going to go to the trouble of meeting outside, I would think that in the vast majority of cases, it is for sex. They are doing what the club does not allow, or is not that conducive too. SJG backdoor [view link]

I don't know how common it is, my comment above was only intended as a suggestion to call it the theory of relativity, as a joke, is all, no speculation as to how common or uncommon it is, if it works for some fine, I don't have a dog in this fight either way

Plenty of men will pay a pretty girl for her time without sex being involved. The problem is just most on this forum not being able to understand anything outside their norm.

"The percentage of men that pay a stripper for non-sexual OTC companionship is probably about the same percentage of men that hire an escort for non-sexual companionship." I'm not so sure that applies. I don't think a lot of guys are in love with their escort, the way sooooo many customers are RILs. I imagine there's a lot more strippers getting taken out to dinner-for-payment, than their are escorts getting paid to talk Course, it's all just speculation, especially since literally none of us here understand the mindset of a guy who would do these things, we just project, because it's so against what we're looking for. It's like how we're all completely perplexed by Onlyfans

It's not out of the norm.

@blahblahblah23 I will play along and comment on your discussion. According to the TUSCL glossary: OTC Outside The Club - Meeting with a dancer for anything from an after work snack at Denny's to a dinner date to an escort session. Not usually approved of by the club or by many dancers. No need for a new acronym. You should also remember: “Everything on this site should be considered a work of fiction” In my humble opinion and limited experience OTC sex (full service) happens maybe 50% of the time, however the ultimate goal of the man is to have sex, but a 50% rate of failure makes sense to me. According to Sigmund Freud “Sex is a prime motivator and common denominator for male humans...” Even today our Oversexualized & Sexually Repressed American culture/society. persists in sending men and women mixed messages about their sexuality. We want women to be objects of sexual desire, yet we expect them to be pure... The reality is that, just like men, women have a natural and healthy desire to be sexual. Yet women are less likely to reveal their sexual desire. American society encourages women to push their sexual desires down. I will said once more; although OTC has many interesting experiences that are individual and unique, the ultimate goal for men, even if they are repressed and have guilty feelings, is to have sex, man have sexual fantasies about women all the time. Is interesting than in our sexualized society, cultural suppression of female sexuality is one thing that exists. Women are in denial of the fact that most men want to have sex with them, and continue to put them in the “friend zone” Sex has become a commodity in today society so what other consenting adults do in the privacy of their OTC encounters should be nobody else business.

I just checked the glossary here, and it appears pretty clear that sex isn't necessarily an element of OTC. I'm sure it happens. I'd be surprised if it was an actual fuckton though. Maybe like a handjob pound or something sounds reasonable. I think TUSCL underestimates the amount of OTC meetups that aren't paid that occur as well, regardless of there being sex or sexual acts involved. Living in, to paraphrase nicespice, South Central Extras (aka south Florida), it doesn't appear common. It could be regional, or just situational.

I rarely do OTC (On The Crapper) I leave dat one to Crazyjoe. I am sure he got a blumpkin or 2

I will give you guys a scenario that is a fact i.e. this really happened. I knew a stripper that sidelined as a cam model in the early days of camming. The guys that became obsessed with her were on another level of PL. Even the biggest PLs on here weren’t nearly as PL as the guys that lust after her. We are talking about guys in their 40s that were never married, still virgins. After getting them to “tip” her ludicrous amounts on cam, she would allow them to TRAVEL to meet her in person inside the club for lapdances. She would also allow some of them to meet her outside the club to take her to dinner - she was paid for her time. She worked in Vegas and had a few guys one from as far as Philadelphia come to visit her for such an opportunity. Guys on here are so experienced they can find OTC for $200, but the general public PL doesn’t even know he can touch boobies in the lapdance area. Keep in mind these were extremely socially awkward men who could get suckered into anything by an extremely attractive woman.

" I think TUSCL underestimates the amount of OTC meetups that aren't paid that occur as well" Yes, I have done tons of unpaid meetings -- lunches ,dinner, drinks -- with various ATFs through the years. I don't call that OTC though, and no one here would either. This is the case where the glossary is out of touch with how the community actually uses the term. The way the community uses the term is always right (by definition); the glossary's job is to reflect that accurately, otherwise it's wrong. IMO.

When I've been looking to hide the salami, escorts have always been the better available option than OTC (or ITC) sex with a stripper. With the strippers I've met who are as/more attractive as the (non-dud) escorts I've met, I was 90% sure they would not fuck just for money, and would likely have been less comfortable with me had I asked for it. It theory, if you're going to do a 30 minute or more lap dance, extras or not, it typically makes sense to do it OTC. In practice, OTC usually ends up being more trouble than it's worth. In spite of 50+ years of feminism, women are still more likely than men to think they can be needy and flaky without losing their dignity. Some women are strippers because its the best financial option for them, but many are because they can't or won't stop being flakes.

"When I've been looking to hide the salami, escorts have always been the better available option than OTC (or ITC) sex with a stripper. With the strippers I've met who are as/more attractive as the (non-dud) escorts I've met, I was 90% sure they would not fuck just for money, and would likely have been less comfortable with me had I asked for it." ilb, nicespice wrote a detailed and convincing treatise as to why most of us find it's exactly the opposite -- OTC is 1000x better, strippers don't look down on you for asking, and yes the hottest ones will do OTC. The one real risk is whether or not she'll show up.

Subraman said “ Yes, I have done tons of unpaid meetings” Is that when you creep them out too bad and tell them you’re bringing SJG and they don’t show up? 🤪😜😝

"Simps will gladly hand over $$ and ask for nothing in return, but when you’re a guy who is busy dealing with work and family that guy is only going to pay for time off services rendered involve sex, otherwise what’s in it for that guy, stimulating conversation?" This.

When my ATF was still dancing we went to dinner twice after her shift. There was never any expectation of sex on either side - we just enjoyed each other's company. I picked up the tab for drinks and dinner, but that was all it cost me.

To be clear, in sure there are guys that pay for non-sexual activity otc. But these guys are called simps. Arguably simps are worse than pl's.

Ive hung out with customers outside of the club, but only in public. One taught me how to play poker at a casino and let me gamble his money. Another took me out for dinner. My favorite was when a customer and I went barhopping in downtown Detroit and I had to drive him home because he got too drunk and let me keep his car for the night. I make it clear beforehand they should not expect anything sexual. Sometimes they try to call my bluff though and then I leave. When they ask for otc with more, I tell them no because I don't want to die. And then lecture them about how Johns murder girls and offer to pull up articles about it for them. They're usually taken aback by it, but the reality is it does happen. Sure, sexy time otc grants more privacy, but there's less guarantee of payment otc and no security or bouncers to call for if the customer is sexually assaulting or hurting me.

It's the internet, "most of us" could be virgins in the 9th grade. I don't get answers when I ask for specifics. And what's hot to one PL isn't to another. When a dancer does something with me that I later realize she wouldn't do sober, goes from a good to a very bad memory. In any case, drunks and other addicts have a narrow window before they destroy their attractiveness. Nicespice I think later said she cut and pasted an older post. That whole thread made me wonder if nicespice is a sock puppet. It's painful when you fall in love with a woman, but later come to suspect that someone else is permanently bum-fisting her.

I know girls who get paid to go to parties dinner etc. Its not that uncommon.

Yeah sorry I take claims with a huge grain of salt when they come people with a compulsion for shit talk and put downs. If you gave me a choice between lunch in a restaurant with blahblah or tempest, or a 50-yard-line seat at the Super Bowl, I'd pick the lunch. If that makes anyone feel superior, enjoy, not costing me a dime. The more different someone is from you, the more you learn by talking with them. It's generally not safe to hang with outlaws. But sex workers are forced into something of an outlaw existence, in spite of being generally undangerous. Their only actual crime is typically a fuckton of tax evasion.

"Nicespice I think later said she cut and pasted an older post. That whole thread made me wonder if nicespice is a sock puppet. " Or maybe she said that to throw us off the scent. Strange times, my friend

Apparently it's common in Vegas for guys to ask strippers to sit with them at the gaming table, in exchange for a cut of each bet they win. A dancer I knew was doing this with a guy, but he wasn't giving her a cut. So she started snatching chips when he wan't looking. The eye in the sky saw her, and she got banned from the casino.

Paid OTC without sex? That sounds like marriage.

^^ true. I now know from experience that when they say show me a hot woman, I’ll show you someone who’s tired of fucking her. It’s one reason why sex workers have so much contempt for successful working men. They make good $$ and can afford to have some variety in their life,. Very rarely will a guy be satisfied with one woman. The difference between men and women is women will try to find one guy to solve all her problems, and men will try to find several women to solve his problem.

>It’s one reason why sex workers have so much contempt for successful working men. Is that true? I'd be interested to hear more about that.

I have done a few OTC without sex, but my scenario is probably something you all wouldn't guess. I had an arrangement with a dancer friend for overnights at her place for $300. In the beginning it was always one or two rounds of sex, with dinner and Netflix. But a few times I passed on the sex and we just hung out. Even though she kept offering. The reason is I wanted to stop at a club before and/or after her place to have sex with another dancer. Too many women, not enough nuts. Have to conserve at times.

It happens. Eventually the guy is going to want the sex. As nicespice mentioned even when propositioned for non-sex otc, they still get shot down. It's like the so called nice guy orbiter guy friend, pretends to be nice as a manipulation tactic to try to get closer to the girl he likes.

Most girls want money for dinner. Nah we’ll eat in the club for the regular 10 dollars. I’m not paying 600 to watch you eat, I at least want head.

"Yes, I have done tons of unpaid meetings -- lunches ,dinner, drinks -- with various ATFs through the years. I don't call that OTC though, and no one here would either. This is the case where the glossary is out of touch with how the community actually uses the term. The way the community uses the term is always right (by definition); the glossary's job is to reflect that accurately, otherwise it's wrong. IMO." I get what you're saying there, I guess for my part I use it literally. In my head, OTC simply means outside the club, no more and no less. The rest I pick up from context.

OTC is sometimes called "Outside Work". If the girl is not getting paid, then it is not OTC. When you call it OTC, it implies that she is getting paid, and that it is an extension of your strip club relationship with her. So to me, OTC = Sex. SJG

@desertscrub You wrote and I quote: “I fucked her and got her off like a champion of GETTING OFF..... her pussy lips were HUGE after sucking and fucking.. HERE IS TO HEATHER!!! (last name withheld)” Pics and Vids of Heater GETTING OFF or it didn’t happen. :D

On the crapper is shitty

I’m guessing blah knows a thing or two from experience and I believe her if she says there is a market for non-sexual OTC. The idea may seem pretty foreign to most of us here but I don’t doubt that there is at least some demand for such services.

For example, the PL could be in need of a Hot Carl, Plate Job, or Cleveland Steamer. No sex, but still a bit more than just companionship. It's a complex world out there!

One of my ATFs (who did no-extras OTC) was always asking me to pay her to clean my house in her g-string. But I assume I could watch strippers clean nicer houses on pornhub.

I have participated in this type of otc MANY times, but agree with others that otc means *something else,* it’s no big deal, just semantics.

===> "And I don't know about anybody else, but I think that there's a hidden valley somewhere in this world with beautiful unicorns roaming breezy open fields." When I posted this joke early in the thread, little did I know that we wouldn't need to find any hidden valley to see a herd of unicorns - they're here in abundance right on this very discussion board! 😉

"I have participated in this type of otc MANY times" I continue to suspect that this happens more than we think "but agree with others that otc means *something else,*" Right. If it turns out everything I've said about OTC over all these years, was me paying strippers $200 to have dinner, the same guys who say it just means meeting outside the club would be howling. It has a clear connotation "it’s no big deal, just semantics." Oh you dear, sweet, naive girl. This is the internet -- this argument is, in fact, the MOST IMPORTANT THING IN THE UNIVERSE! :) :)

^^^ just think, when you and SJG get that organization running all that OTC and goat love will be FREE!!!!!!!!!* * disclaimer: I am not accusing Subraman of making love to a goat, only his organizational co-founder, SJG.

There is a market for non-sexual OTC. I've had strippers tell me about going out to dinner or engaging in other social activities with customers and they have made such offers to me. Generally, they want to meet in a public place. When they ask for money I politely decline but if they are willing to meet me in return for me paying for a meal then I'll do that. Usually I get that type of offer from regulars and I see them offering me that as a reward for me being their regular and spending money on them in the club. Compared to the majority of the posters here, I may be atypical in never doing sexual OTC activities with strippers. I don't see anything wrong with that. I'm just not interested. I want a girl who is pretty, friendly acting and able to do a sensual lap dance at the club. I don't like the hard grinding or bouncing up and down on my lap type of lap dance. I actually like some of my stripper regulars and if I was 30 years younger I might try to get one of those girls as a girlfriend but not at the age I am now.

Men pay for whatever they want. I know plenty of girls with sugar daddies they don't have sex with and who get paid to be arm candy to go to parties etc. This isn't that abnormal.

One of my ATFs saw a cop OTC, but all he wanted was for her to talk shit to him. She talked pretty intense (and unrequested) shit to me for free, so I can't imagine how scathing the paid shit talk was. She broke it off, got disgusted with him because of the comments he made about his kids. (She was as loving to children as she was hateful to adults.) She started being careful about driving the speed limit, so he wouldn't have an excuse to pull her over. So we need the acronym NSCOTC (No Sex Cop OTC), since that's a whole nuther category that can get complicated for the stripper.

Considering the audience on TUSCL - it’s likely that OTC means an outside of the club sexual encounter. But, since there are many other tastes and desires (in the world outside of TUSCL) - I’m sure there are gentlemen who enjoy the company of a beautiful woman OTC - and they don’t require sex. There are likely cops who are also PL’s - as there are so many cops - there must be a certain percentage who indulge in strip clubs.

Yup. Just like there are lots and lots of sugar babies getting paid for their time but who are not having sex. 😉 COMING UP...We'll have a thread telling us we need to rename women with vaginas as cis-women in order to accommodate the 1 in 1,000 dudes who want to wear dresses and grow boobs. 😂

Going to recopy and paste what blah said: September 27, 2021 ^ to be clear I am talking about one offs or the couple of times types paying for otc nonsex activities Yes the same dude who was met at the club originally will not give out money forever for nothing. He is in the club for a reason. No offense. ^ As in…blah wasn’t claiming it to be a sugar like arrangement. These are guys who tend to fall off pretty quickly and go on with whatever in their lives. They are not hardcore monger types (nor would they even aspire to that even if they found sites like this)

Why wouldn't a cop go to strip clubs? You're going to have to deal with the 2AMers anyway...

There are cops who go to strip clubs. IME, those guys party extremely hard and are as into strippers and whores as much as anyone

Going to get more cynical here, it’s also technically legal for cops in some states to have intercourse with whoever they are investigating. (Tho some in recent years have begun banning that behavior) I know during strip club raids in Texas some years ago, they would literally go in to enjoy full service in extras clubs and then the next evening come back and arrest the dancers involved. So of all the individuals who have recourse, if they felt as if they received ROB behavior, they are in the best position to retaliate. Which good for them I guess

Escorts generally avoid this problem because PLs give the blow-by-blow (yeah take the pun if you want it) on [view link] . So non-LE customers can have confidence they will get what they are looking for, without the sex worker having to break the law by explicitly promising it. But of course cops can often routinely lie in court anyway. So maybe dancers in those clubs should ask the PLs to give their stage name and describe the VIP sordid details on TUSCL?